Hey, I saw you took out the bit about T’bor hitting Kylara. It’s said in Dragonquest that T’bor has hit Kylara when he’s drunk and upset, and then he doesn’t remember doing it afterwards. That’s why Kylara hides the fact that she’s been sleeping with Meron from him. Also, the statement “a dragon would never let its rider be beaten” seems like a personal opinion rather than a fact, unless there’s something in the books that specifically says otherwise. F’lar regularly shook Lessa in the first few books, and while the dragons were obviously upset, they never physically interfered with things like duels. What the books DO say is that dragons never harm humans, making them intervening in an altercation between two humans even more unlikely.
Before I removed the comment about T'bor getting drunk and beating Kylara, I searched all the Pern books. I could not find any "drunk" comment related to T'bor. There is a comment in Dragonquest which says this, "It was too bad you couldn’t beat a Weyrwoman with impunity. Her dragon wouldn’t permit it but a sound thrashing was what Kylara badly needed.
McCaffrey, Anne. Dragonquest: Volume II of The Dragonriders of Pern (p. 76). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
“Kylara stepped quickly from the collapsed dress at her feet, all too aware of the livid bruises that stood out on her fair skin. One more reason to wear the new gown. She shrugged into the loose linen robe she had discarded earlier. While sleeveless, its folds almost covered the big bruise on her right arm. She could always blame that on a natural accident. Not that she cared a whistle what T’bor thought but it made for less recrimination. And he never knew what he did when he was well wined-up.”
The bruises (at least some of them) are from Meron being rough with her, but it’s implied that T’bor has also hit her when he was drunk.
The key word in that quote is "implied". One of the rules about posts on Pern Wiki is that 'facts' are preferred to 'suppositions'. So, if you has said that it had been implied that T'bor 'hit' (not 'beat') her, I would not have removed the comment, because there is a big difference between being hit and being beat.
I would be very interested to know exactly which book you copied that quote from - because I am not able to find "hit her when he was drunk" in either Dragonflight or Dragonquest.
My copy of Dragonquest says this:
"“Be quiet!” Kylara stepped quickly from the collapsed dress at her feet, all too aware of the livid bruises that stood out on her fair skin. One more reason to wear the new gown. She shrugged into the loose linen robe she had discarded earlier. While sleeveless, its folds almost covered the big bruise on her right arm. She could always blame that on a natural accident. Not that she cared a whistle what T’bor thought but it made for less recrimination. And he never knew what he did when he was well wined-up.
“No good will come of it,” Rannelly was moaning as she gathered up the red gown and began to shuffle across to her cubby."
McCaffrey, Anne. Dragonquest: Volume II of The Dragonriders of Pern (p. 58). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
So, the entire paragraph about the bruises is not in the kindle version of Dragonquest.
The second section of my response (the part not in quotation marks) are my own words, not from the book.
“Well wined-up” would mean he was drunk. The semantics of hit vs beat when discussing domestic abuse seems a bit nitpicky, but whatever. And while I can accept that supposition is not allowed, there’s a difference between me saying he hit her just because I think it seems likely with nothing from the books to back it up (which would be supposition) and me basing it off actual evidence in the book even if it’s never directly stated. Implications in the book are still facts because the author is the one who made those implications, it just needs to be noted that it was not directly stated. Relationships between green riders and brown/blue riders are entirely implied in the 9th Pass and not actively discussed, that doesn’t mean that’s not what they were. If you want to change it to “it is implied he may have hit her” then that’s fine, but I didn’t make anything up.
"The semantics of hit vs beat"
The definition of 'hit' is a single strike, while the definition of 'beat' is to repeatedly and violently hit.
As I said before, Wiki Pern prefers 'facts' to 'supposition'. Since I am not an admin and I do not make the rules, I cannot make a ruling.
But, from my own point of view:
1) where you said, "I didn’t make anything up,"
2) after you said, "The second section of my response (the part not in quotation marks) are my own words, not from the book,"
3) and "it seems likely with nothing from the books to back it up"
I have to wonder why we are even having this conversation, because if there's nothing in the books, the sentence that I deleted from the character page was your fabrication.
I also have to wonder what your stated "Relationships between green riders and brown/blue riders" has to do with this discussion - because Kylara is not a green rider and T'bor is neither a brown or a blue rider.
And, last but not least, when I edit character pages, my goal is to either correct incorrect information whenever possible or remove incorrect information when I am not able to find a reasonable explanation for the incorrect information.
I have to wonder why if “[you] are not and admin [..] and can’t make a ruling” why you continue to be so stubborn about the issue, but i guess I’ll have to go without get an answer to that. As for you musings:
There IS something in the book, the sentence that says “he never knew what he did when he was well wined-up.” Summarizing that with my own words afterwards is not “fabricating” information.
I gave the example of other riders as a parallel of another time when things are implied by the author but not directly stated yet are still true.
You took “it seems likely with nothing from the books to back it up” out of context, as I SPECIFICALLY said that’s not what i was doing, that I was basing it off evidence in the book.
I have GIVEN a reasonable explanation for the information, and even a rephrasing that addresses your concerns. But since you are willfully misinterpreting everything I say so that you can condescendingly “wonder” why we’re having this conversation, we can go ahead and end it. This is not important enough for me to continue arguing it.
As I said before, since I am not an admin, I cannot rule. And, I'm certainly not going to continue arguing this specific point. You might want to keep in mind that one of the reasons why the Pern Wiki was created was to point out inconsistencies, but only those inconsistencies found in the books. It was not designed to make assumptions. And, while Wiki Pern 'editors' (who, like yourself, are not 'admins') are expected to follow the rules and policies, they are also allowed to edit other editors' posts when they don't follow the rules and policies. Some editors will delete entire contributions that were not taken directly from the books. I totally agree. Since I've never found a place where all rules and policies are kept in one place, I have always left it up to admins and other editors to point out to me when I have broken a rule or policy. So, when someone else edits my edit, I usually accept that fact then move on to another character page. As the old saying goes, "If you don't like the rules, don't play."
Disclaimer: I'm not an admin on this wiki either. But I've read and reread these books many times and I'll add my two cents on what I think the statement means.
Given the context, to me it sounds like Kylara notices she has a bruise on her arm, thinks about covering it up so T'bor won't wonder about it, but isn't too concerned because she can just blame it on him since he doesn't remember his actions when he gets drunk.
That doesn't necessarily mean he hits her when he's drunk; just that he doesn't remember what he does when he's drunk.
Now there might be other passages that more explicitly suggest T'bor hits Kylara; if they can be found, then the information would be valid.
I will agree with Shambala108. The text does not say that it is Tbor who is beating Kilara. The fact that is that there are bruises, and Kilara hides them from Tbor.
In my opinion, the phrase is constructed in such a way as to say that the bruises were left by passionate Meron and Kilara hides them as a sign of treason, but if Tbor tries to accuse her of treason, then she can say that he himself beats her when he drinks ... Thus, they maintain mutual parity. Tbor does ignore the treason, Kilara does not spoil Tbor's reputation.
Hi, first of all, it's not necessary to leave me a new message whenever you find a character who is not in a book. They were added by an admin, User:AMCAlmaron, several years ago, not by me. So if you don't want to remove them yourself, you can ask another admin, either User:Natalya-ru or User:Stephenaug.
Also, Pei Pei Tingis in Dragonsdawn, in the extended version of the book. That's why I was able to create the page. I didn't just make it up out of my head. She's the one who gives Zi Ongola hangover medicine after the gather.
Thanks for the info. The reason why I contacted you first is because, when I previously contacted Natalya-ru about a problem, she didn't understand what I was asking, then referred my question to you. Since I do remember your telling me earlier that you are not an administrator here, I guess it would make more sense for me to contact Stephenaug.
As to Pei Pei Ting, I have to wonder why her named is not listed in the Dragonsdawn list but is listed in The Ford of Red Hanrahan, where she doesn't appear.
Hi, I know it's confusing, but there are two "Dragon Harpers", one is the novel featuring Kindan, Dragon Harper, and the other is a video game, Dragonharper (Crossroads). I think there aren't too many people who have played the game, which is why so many character names are red linked, and I'm not sure this wiki even considers the game canon.
Thanks for the update.Looks like I'll not have to worry about that "List of characters in Dragonharper" link any longer.Even though I have experience with formatting requirements for several editing languages, I find that, even though my Fandom edits look right until I Save or Publish them, they don't always look the same after they are saved or published - which often requires multiple edits.So, it took me so long to figure out how to successfully add a "Dragonharper (Crossroads)" disclaimer to that page that somebody must have taken notice of the multiple edits that I was doing.Now, I'm not seeing that "List of characters in Dragonharper" link anymore ;-/ .
Hi, I'm not an admin here but I suggest you read Pern Wiki:For Beginners, particularly the section titled "Link sanity". It states that you should "Only link a name or word the first time it's used on a page."
The word Pellar is already linked on the Carissa page, so the second appearance of the word doesn't need linking thanks.
Thank you for the information. If you will review my edits on the Carissa page, you will see that the Pellar link is gone. That link happened because I am very new to editing on Fandom and, before I discovered Pern Wiki: For Beginners, I was experimenting with the Visual Editor formatting. What I was actually looking for was a way to italicize the word Pellar. I have since discovered that the Classic Editor will better suit my needs.
After I tweak the grammar for a character, would it be acceptable for me to remove the "This article is in need of a clean-up. Reason Grammar" notation at the top of the page and replace it with the "This article is a stub" notation? Or, should I just request that someone else take care of that?
Has anybody noticed that the comments about Yvala in both Dragonsblood and Dragon Heart are identical: "Contrary to K’lior’s fears, Lord Egremer was effusive with his praise of the dragons and their riders. “We’ll have ground crews out at first light, I promise,” he said. He looked nervously northward, toward where Thread had fallen. “How bad is it, do you suppose?” K’lior shook his head. “We did our best,” he said. “But the warm weather meant that every Thread was alive. The watch-whers were overwhelmed and we’d never trained with them, so our coordination was lousy.” Lady Yvala’s eyes grew wide with alarm. “We’ll have sweepriders out at first light,” K’lior promised. “As soon as we see anything, we’ll let you know.” “I’d hate to lose the stands of timber to the north,” Lord Egremer said. “They’re old enough to be harvested, but I was hoping to hold off until mid-Pass, when we’ll really be needing the wood.” K’lior nodded. “We’ll do our best.” “And we’re grateful for all that you’ve done,” Egremer replied."?
You can not only change the "cleanup" template to the "stub" template, but also remove this templates altogether. Of course, if you read all the novels and are sure that there is nothing more to add about the character.
I'm a bit confused about all of the emails I've been getting which have indicated that I have been editing without providing an Edit Summary - because, for several days now, I have had my Preferences set to warn me if I make an edit without an edit summary. And, I have not received a warning for several days. When I looked at the Revision I made of Xhinna as of 17:02, February 1, 2020 (edit)- for which I received an email from you which says "no edit summary" - I see where Xhinna's revision says this, "Kloew (wall | contribs) m (Added Dragon's Time to Appearances)". Since the only change I made was to add Dragon's Time to Appearances, I assumed that to be a sufficient edit summary, especially since Xhinna's name was on the "List of characters in Dragon's Time" page but Dragon's Time was not in Xhinna's list of Appearance. Would you prefer that I provide more detail for each edit?
Kloew, if you have your preferences set so that you get emails when you don't leave an edit summary, that has nothing to do with this wiki - it's a FANDOM-wide thing. The admins here are not sending you the emails.
If you don't want the emails, I suggest you change your preferences, and if that doesn't work, then you would have to contact someone at FANDOM to see how to fix it.
While I was making a list of characters in Dragonsdawn - from "List of characters in Dragonsdawn" - I discovered that when I compared many of the names in that list with a word search of Dragonsdawn, many of those names do not appear in my Kindle version of Dragonsdawn. I am aware that Red Star Rising and Dragonseye are 2 versions of the same book. But, I was not aware of there being 2 versions of any of the other Dragonriders book. So, is there a simple explanation as to why my Kindle version of Dragonsdawn does not contain many of the names in the "List of characters in Dragonsdawn"?